ifitbeyourwill Podcast #196 • Rae Spoon

What happens when a non-binary, trans artist comes back to country music and refuses to leave anything out? On Assigned Country Singer At Birth, Rae Spoon puts trans lives, disability, harm reduction, religious trauma, solidarity and colonialism alongside the trucks, beer and heartbreak traditionally associated with the genre. On *If It Be Your Will*, we get into why country still matters, what happens when you make music outside the boundaries of expectation, and what it means to claim a genre—and a country—that hasn’t always made room for you.

https://raespoon.ca/

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

colleyc 0:01

Welcome back everyone. We are here chugging through the summer. It's been alright so far, I think. Up here in the northern parts of America, Montreal always beautiful in the summer. And I have a musician here that is coming in from Montreal today. Ray Spoon. They're originally from Alberta, but have moved their way over to uh beautiful Montreal, but also Toronto. And Ray is very much of the country indie pop electronic-y, and like I like to say Canadiano. I think that captures an essence that is not Americana because it's not the same, but very much that way. And Ray, I just want to thank you so much for coming in and sharing some of your thoughts on your music with us today.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

Yeah, thanks for having me.

colleyc 0:57

Yeah, it's a real pleasure to meet you. I'd like to start these off with a little walk down memory lane of moments that kind of really affected your musical path or your musical journey. Are there moments that you that are always kind of stick out as kind of having a foundational effect on the course of your musical journey that you're on still today?

SPEAKER_01 1:24

I think it yeah, it depends. Like songwriting-wise, probably probably, but probably more easy to identify as I guess what might be more considered as like career-wise. I do like I really think like I grew up in Alberta, like Calgary 3D 7 territory. Uh, but I moved to Vancouver when I was 19. And then that by the time I was 20, I was playing festivals and you know, I put out an album and I was touring. So um, and that was very much based on like the amount of support there was in that city at that time. So so I think that I see that as a pivotal moment, like for sure.

unknown 1:59

Yeah.

colleyc 2:00

And what was it like creating your first record? Like, do you remember those early? That that first kind of like because you were also a producer at the same time, like you've produced much of your solo career spanning 13 solo albums that you have out, right? Like it's such a great catalog that you have, and it's very diverse. What was that first kind of like record creation process like for you as like coming into finding your voice kind of the way that you wanted to sing and play? And can you kind of open that door a little bit up for us? So that that that first kind of kick at the can, as we say?

SPEAKER_01 2:41

Yeah, I mean, my first kick at the can was an EP that probably people don't hear now, which is what I was talking about, which is fine. But I had only recorded on cassettes, right? So I had a four-track cassette player. It was like right when people were moving from cassettes to computer, like Daw-based recording. So yeah, I think like, but I had the experience I think a lot of people had the first time they went in the studio, which is that it is a completely different thing than playing live. And so, you know, playing in time and the clicker or how you're gonna play with musicians maybe you don't usually play shows with and things like that. So so that was like a crash course in learning. By the time I did my first like full-length record that came out in 2003, I was like, I came out when I was 22. I had then been touring with the musicians that were on that record. Um, and so and I don't think we tried to do anything to quick. So that was like, you know, it it was a move to something that I could see that that actually made it a lot easier to have that like kind of rapport. So yeah.

colleyc 3:39

Yeah. And did you kind of have an idea like when you went into the studio that first time, you had it like, you know, a handful of songs? Did like how did those songs come to be? Like, had you been writing for a long time, all the way up in like were you writing songs in your teens and stuff? Like, was that something that was a part of what you did? Yep.

SPEAKER_01 3:57

Yeah, I started writing songs when I was maybe 12 or something, and I had been playing shows since I was like 17. So that that was something that and that was just kind of what I wanted to do. So I didn't I purposely didn't go to university because I knew I wanted to play music, which is, you know, sounds silly, but it's actually I I think that was a really good decision at the time for for me. But yeah, so I think I but I didn't know like the capacity, you know, the how beyond recording on a four-track, like the you know, the digital, you know, what's possible. And so yeah, so there it was cool to work with session musicians and things like that who were in Vancouver at that time to just really expand in my view of like how you could make music while I was still and I think at that point I hadn't really started playing country. I started playing country and writing country more when I realized more like that I missed it or where I was from, if that makes sense. Like it's so ubiquitous. And then I grew up a lot on singing in church and you know, and gospel music through whatever interpretation my church had of it. But you know, I think that that and that kind of started to come out of me in a surprising way. So by the time my first record came out, that was where it was at. And yeah.

colleyc 5:05

Interesting. And did you kind of have a a style or a genre that you wanted to put forth, or was it kind of like all up in the air, and we'll just see like did did country kind of like because you had been a part of your, you know, your growing up, like was that kind of a go-to because it was a safe, you know, familiar. I said maybe not safe, but familiar.

SPEAKER_01 5:27

Yeah. Um, I think actually I more lean to like get that was a time when there was like folk music that wasn't country was pretty popular. I like someone like Ani DeFranco or there were like some people, she was like an independent musician, and there was like, you know, she was on the cover of the Rolling. There was like Abis of the Rolling Stone or something when I was in high school. So there's like evidence that there were pathways for I suppose songwriter folk music. Like I wasn't really coming from like a punk background musically, although probably I do values-wise like since the beginning, you know. So um, but yeah, I think country, yeah, it was something it was interesting because then I met actually a bunch of other folks who were playing like old-time music, Bluegrass Country, who are also like, yeah, just from more punk communities and or queer at, you know, at that time. So it was something that other people were interested in. But yeah, definitely the the actual business side of it. I was that was not that wouldn't have been like I would say it's like it was a very bad business plan um to like come out as trans and start playing country music in the same year, but you know, and being out as queer before that wasn't like, you know, it was actually a you know not a very common thing to even be out and queer as a musician in the late 90s. So yeah.

colleyc 6:43

Yeah. When did that start feeling more possible that you know it wasn't seen as so fringe anymore? Like, did you feel that kind of transitioning? Like it was be becoming more accepted, you know, in in pop culture and and and music, the music industry and stuff. Like have a sense of when that started to shift a little bit more to the left a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 7:06

Yeah, I think maybe 2016. You know, I had a good 15 years of, yeah, it was a good, you know, but actually because of how great and and small the Canadian media, you know, like it's a really and the industry is because it's a small place. Um, you know, it doesn't take long to stop having that like be the first interview question or the only thing written about in an interview. But that was the time when people didn't know what it was, so it made sense, right? Like people they're like, what does that mean? What does that word mean? was the question. So um, and I didn't that's like not something I think about all the time unless I'm asked, you know, I notice it in pronouns and genderings and things that, you know, like anybody would notice if their name was getting wrong, but you know, you don't sit around say telling yourself your name all day either. So hopefully. Yeah. So but yeah, it took a look, it takes a long time. And then, you know, I came out as non-binary in 2012, and that was still, you know, and people are still struggling getting their they pronouns used in publications. So, you know, I don't think there was ever a time that was safe, but I think at this point it's not something I feel like I need to explain at the beginning of every book I write, or you know, like it's not necessary. Like I think it's it's out there, and I wouldn't attach it to like a certain generation or age either. I think it's a pretty widespread awareness, although sometimes that obviously that always starts causes a backlash, as we saw in the late 90s, early 2000s with like queer folks on LGBT. Yeah. Anyway, so I think right now we're seeing that backlash for trans people that's similar to the late 90s. So because more people know about what it is, so they can get mad about it. Or use it for political, yeah, or use it as a political deflection, you know.

colleyc 8:47

So right, right. Well, we won't talk politics, but I think it's about so when you were kind of like not, you know, out there being trans or like did your songwriting style shift? Like, was it hard to kind of like not pour who you are into the music that you were creating? Um like was that a struggle when when you were kind of like in that phase where people weren't really aware or you know you weren't out there like it wasn't like you said the first thing that you started talking about. Like, was your songwriting? I guess I'm trying to get at is did the songwriting get affected by that?

SPEAKER_01 9:26

I'm I mean, yeah, I don't know. I don't think so. Because I always just wrote songs and and they matched as I changed through who I was. So it was not something actually that's you know, I didn't even specifically write anything about being queer or trans in my songs, like maybe a a pronoun or something that might be implied, like of a subject, but nothing like that until 2008, which is kind of interesting because that's when I was like, okay, I'm just gonna write what's actually happening to me. And so, you know, when I started doing that in 2008 and kind of took a slowly started walking a bit away from country for almost 20 years, I wrote, I was like, I'm gonna write what actually, you know, I I was like calling it Canadian Gothic or something like you know, yeah. So I wrote songs like, you know, like off the grid, you know, like uh things that are I started to actually mention it because I realized that that that was something that also differentiated me from other artists, if that makes sense. Like so, you know, and then now it's like there are obviously I just sometimes I write songs that are really specific, but most of them aren't, you know. I think it it's fun to use like a sense of humor. It can be a more complex, you know.

colleyc 10:41

Yeah, I agree. And I I've loved how you've kind of changed over the years. I mean, like I mentioned, I mean you've been writing music for for so long, and the records that you're putting out, the styles tend to morph too as the years roll on from kind of like definitely a country origin story shifting to more indie poppy electronics started to seep its way into like just such a great. I mean, I liked how you weren't gender uh locked, you know, it's like the other genre thing, right?

SPEAKER_01 11:16

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I think there's a freedom to when you don't fit into music industry, like the standards of music, whatever it was at that point. Now the may there is no industry, nobody's making money. I don't know why we call it that. But you know, I think it's like that's like a coal mine, it doesn't have coal in it. But at that, at the point, not fitting into like gender confines also allows the freedom to like just be maintain an independent, you know, like there's not as many people interested in changing your content or being a part of that. So I always and I always love that idea of be able to just, you know, do reflect what I want to reflect about my environment. But yeah, I was living in Montreal 2008, and then I was also living in Germany a bit, and you know, and I tour I was touring a lot in Europe for years, so like I think that those musical influences were also coming in with like rock and and like electronic music, and yeah.

colleyc 12:06

Yeah, totally, totally. I I was just listening to the hidden cameras latest um record that came out uh late last year, and right like they gone full electronic and beats, and like it's just I mean, I find it's great, and allowing those kind of like things to expand, and you're not just like pigeonholed into like nope, this is what I do. Um which leads me to does your process change um vis-a-vis songwriting as your styles are shifting? Like, do you approach it in different ways, or is that always pretty the same way that you approach your songwriting process?

SPEAKER_01 12:46

Yeah. I think I started using computers as a tool. Like I didn't use computers at all. I just kind of wrote on guitar banjo or whatever instrument till around 2006 or seven, I guess. 2007 maybe is when I first got a computer at all. So that change, that changes, and it's actually nice for being a producer to kind of like put in, be able to just play with other parts to create like demos and also play with like yeah, like like elements that you're not having to accompany yourself live to like, you know, because if you're not without that, then you know, it allows like to step back a bit from the music and hear it or to try different parts or then you know, just being trying to like like rely on that live thing. But I also think a lot of people like myself also spent a long time looking for a drum sound and then realized that a live drummer would have done it in a minute, you know, like so there is something so live playing is something that just can't be replaced. Um and so yeah, anyway, it's a very interesting dynamic, but I do like to take different like paths to and now actually I try to use like I'm trying to use chords that I can't play on, you know, on the guitar. So I'm watching my chord stuff and I'm doing it's just more like more, yeah, just interval changes and adding notes and stuff. But it that also, if I can't, you know, is more geared to maybe the computer to like just maybe st or start simple on the guitar and then add ninths and six or whatever later, right? But yeah, I really like also chords that are changing in a repetition, so around the same melody, things like that. So yeah, so that kind of stuff I think also I think people that's really common in pop music. And but it's interesting how you can kind of make these complex chords more invisible that they don't stick out in a way, you know? So yeah.

colleyc 14:25

Yeah, yeah. Interesting. And do you like do you have a feeling when you're on to something with a song? Like like is it a is it a phrase or a a series of chords that you're just mm you know playing around with? Like what what tends to be that nucleus that starts a song that you will that you'll want to harness, you know, like keep keep playing it or or flushing it out. Is there something in that in that magic um sauce that that sparks at like okay, this is okay, I gotta keep working on this one?

SPEAKER_01 15:00

Yeah, I mean uh very like lyrics-based, especially my last record, that's country. So those are usually start with a one-liner, right? You like whatever the line or like the title of the song, you can start us, you know, and write around it. So um it depends though. Yeah, I think often I will, I'm very like hooks-based person. Like, I don't know, in my music, I really so I often write things and then throw them away and see what I remember, which is like like I'll, you know, whatever I remember about what I was writing, then that must stay in my memory. I don't always do that, but I love, yeah, I love like hooks and things like that. So but I often can I like yeah, to conceptualize things all as I do like by my 13th album, I was, you know, like the last one, it was very much like just thinking about returning to country music a bit, but how that would look and how I could incorporate yeah, everything that I learned and also I think the first time I was singing country music, it got a little twangy for my taste. I don't think it was like that far from my original accent, but I wanted to sing it like more, like just less thinking about it being country and just sing it. And that's the whole joke about being assigned a country singer because it just happens if I don't think about it. So I just kind of like tried to lean towards that. Then I don't need to, it's not a costume or like something I need to put on or take off, you know.

colleyc 16:18

So yeah. And so this the your latest the latest record that came out, country music breaks my heart for the first track. So would that be an example of that first line? Was kind of the the seed that started that song like nice.

SPEAKER_01 16:36

Uh yeah, that was the first line I wrote on the whole album, actually, because I was thinking about writing about the reasons why, you know, writing about that experience, because it did break my heart in some way. And that's part of why I moved to more electronic and and pop music, just because it was a hard time to con I think it was like too soon for a lot of LGBTQ 2S people, like or whatever, you know, to like enjoy country and not get completely triggered if they were from that background. Um, and then you know, and then convincing folks, and I'm from a working class family in Alberta. If I played in Red Deer, my cousins would be there, like uh off the oil rigs or whatever, you know. So it's it's not that I don't like have share a background. I don't think you need that background to play country music. I think it's about opening the, you know, it's about having a connection to it at this point. And so yeah, it's not necessarily about that, but you know, I was thinking about how to do that. So yeah.

colleyc 17:29

And like what was the shift? Like what like if you look back at your last country record that was put out, and then this one, what do you feel? What do you notice like right away the biggest differences? Like, are they so are their thesis statements different from from the last one you did to this one that just came out this year?

SPEAKER_01 17:50

Um, yeah. I think the last one I did it was called Whitehurst Comes Rolling, and that was 2007. I don't really know. But that, you know, that was a record that I there was still like lots of queer people on it, like Alison Russell and my friend Anna Teshara and like and John Wood recorded in Vancouver. That was done to tape. It was kind of an accident because I just had the songs and I I'd been playing so many shows live, right? So I think at that point I was in a momentum. I was playing like 200 or more, 250 shows a year, you know. So, and I was I recorded that the country duets album with Rodney DeCrue called Trucker's Memorial, which was like, yeah, it's I like that record. It's funny. And we would tour small towns, it's almost like the like performance art level couple country song where people just didn't know our relation to each other. And it was kind of it was funny till it wasn't funny, you know. So, and it was and I actually genuine, I love Rodney's songwriting, and I, you know, it was really cool to get to do that. But yeah, I think there was something where I was the last one, it was more of a I'm just doing what I, you know, I was already on this path. I wasn't really like planning it. But this one, yeah, I think there's it's a maybe a lot. I I thought about it for a long time. It took me years to write it and years to record it. So, you know, the crap, the craft of what I've been working on over the like 25 years kind of starts to show producer-wise, or and then it it is almost all trials, not binary people playing on it, which and definitely lots of queer people, that's a diversity, which I've always valued. But yeah, it was every there was a lot of comments from folks just that it was nice to like spend and their, you know, time playing this music together in that group. Because it doesn't happen very commonly, you know, and technicians and you know, like so that was kind of interesting. I have a lot of footage of us recording it that I would like to maybe put out because I think it's it's just really interesting because it does sound very, very country in a way. Like no one would say it's not people who know how. And then and then when you see these like really punk-I mean, folks who do play country music, but like trying all this like different folks. It's just like it's not the image that a lot of people have around it. So yeah, it was just an honor to work with all those people. But um, yeah, it's also like I really designed this one for like live performance. Like, you know, my last record, not dead yet, was about my like cancer treatment experiences and complications. It's very like a lot of emotions, but maybe not my favorite live record, you know. Like it was, you know, it's good to like express that stuff. But I also think that, you know, it's just a very different, they're very different records. They almost sound like two different people in some way, but I was wanting to maybe get get some levity and some there's nothing wrong with like you're still living a full life when you're sick, and there's nothing that was like there was lots of levity at that point too. But yeah, just it it was cool. I get I'm able to play shows again, you know, being able to do that, have that live exchange is really important to me.

colleyc 20:33

So yeah, because I had read like you had you had to be super careful, right? Like you couldn't just go into any showroom and like, okay, let's start playing. Like you have to play outside a lot and like be very aware. And going from, like you said, 200 plus shows to you know, having to kind of pick and choose where you could go and play must have been a real struggle.

SPEAKER_01 20:54

And I mean now I I still have complicated health now, and I just had to make a decision that that's like a risk, I guess I have to engage with to not disappear, which is complicated. And and I really there's a lot of people who can't do that with their health. And and I, you know, so that stuff is still really important, like access is important, but yeah, I think that does that make it a working class job? Yes, maybe putting your body in harm's way. So, you know, like for but I think that the message has been, you know, overall for everyone is just that you have to do it. So if you, you know, if you want to participate. So, you know, I think that's complicated, but by you know, we're always all engaging with things on different levels, figuring out where we can enact change and also what we have to do to survive. So yeah.

colleyc 21:37

Absolutely, absolutely. Well, I I mean for one, I'm really happy that you're still putting music out there and assigned country singer at birth is is a really I love it. I just think it's such a great record from top to finish. Um, I love the beginning song too. It kind of sets the stage for you know, kind of playful. In a way.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

Yeah.

colleyc 22:01

And how do you find it now has been received? It's been out, you know, it came out in April, right? Yeah. 10th April. How have you felt it's been received? Like, are people kind of getting the intent that you had behind it?

SPEAKER_01 22:16

Yes, for sure. I think so. At live shows, especially. Like I played in places played at the West End Culture Center, like in Winnipeg, or I played in Saskatchewan. I hadn't been there in six years. But people still come to my shows, like whatever number of them. I'm the fact that anyone comes to my shows is like really wild to me. So, you know, I'm just like I like the touring and the actually going out and playing. Um, and then there's just like fun surprise parts of it. And it's cool to actually, I can see that things have really shifted in um, yeah, just like so the human rights aspect or the like presence of certain parts of my identity because yeah, it's more comp if I'm singing about my Austomies and and I'm trans, you know, like I don't know. It's like the Austomie Cowboy song has been the big breakout surprise. Because I feel like I play for lots of groups of elders, older folks at festivals. I love the ones that are super intergenerational. And you know, and then you have this idea, people think older people, oh, they're not gonna like, you know, but actually like we're just rocking out and like the Austomie thing, like a lot of them understand I talk, you know. So it's like it's interesting to see these kill like all the connections that can be made. Um so which is something that like I think is so valuable. You know, you get to learn from so many different people.

colleyc 23:27

Right. And and and pushing acceptance and and you know, we're all in this together and we're, you know, like humanity, you know, empathy, like all of these great uh human feelings that we all feel, like bringing those together. I just I find that's such a remarkable thing to do and to have the power to do that. Curiously, like when you're up on stage, like are people oftentimes singing to like the songs that you're singing? Like, like, do you realize that you have a bigger following than you thought maybe you had?

SPEAKER_01 24:02

Um, yeah, people do. Like if the songs are out before they might be singing along to them. I try to like not think about what how big of a following I have, if that makes sense. Like, actually, I didn't put this record on Spotify, but I don't look at metrics as much as possible. Like, I don't look at how many people like a post is or like you know what I mean? Like I kind of decided, like I realize that the whole thing is like a choose your own adventure. So all of my ex surprising experiences are far more like qualitative than quantitative, you know, and I think that that's really, really cool. So if it's something, yeah, something more in depth, you know, like someone named their baby after you. I don't know. And that's like, and and the rest, you know, I think the qualitative ones are the ones that are that's where you can lose your way. And that's the way you can get kind of preyed on by whoever's, you know, by that star system pyramid scheme that seems to be going around, you know.

colleyc 24:54

So yeah, the industry has shifted, as you alluded to at the beginning of this conversation, right? Like the music industry, if it's an industry at all anymore, because it just seems more of on like likes and checks and thumbs ups and you know, which feels kind of empty.

SPEAKER_01 25:11

Yeah. I mean, I think like social media on the internet's like a very real space. It's more the idea, yeah, the idea of working for free, you know, like the idea of selling a goal that nobody it's like nobody knows what the actual goal is, if that makes sense. So, you know, I think having like real goals and then how you're gonna reach them, then that's great if you want to figure out how to interact with social media in that way, you know? But that not anything without limitation, you know? And so if the social media engagement is making someone happy and feeling connected, great, you know. But if you knowing if you have two million streams, you're not gonna make any money. So like the money is kind of out of the equation no matter what you do. So kind of keeping that idea of like that the connection is what it is, you know. So um, so that's kind of interesting. And I try to learn from like so many artists have so many different paths of how they find that. So yeah, so that's something I'm really interested in and always ask people about. Yeah.

colleyc 26:02

Very cool. Well, Ray, this has been a stellar conversation. I I try to keep it to 25, so I have so much more we could talk about, but we'll we'll we'll have you come back around sometime. And great.

SPEAKER_01 26:15

Yes, I'll have to make the new record.

colleyc 26:18

And well, is is maybe my last question is what does the rest of 2026 hold for you and the music?

SPEAKER_01 26:26

And yeah, I'm still touring, so I'm gonna drive to Newfoundland from Montreal, like because I want to see it, and I'll I'll just pick up my bass player and then we'll go to Halifax. So I'm touring the Maritimes and I'm actually writing my fourth book, which is called Cancer Person. Um, so I have to finish that by November. But yeah, I'm also producing a couple of records and working on a theater project. So just but you know, for as far as a full-length album goes, I think my album cycle is more like every three years now. Makes sense. I want at least a year to write it, a year to record it, and a year to actually make the films or like the content. The films are visual representations. So, you know, just like taking it more, yeah, again, a qualitative approach. So yeah, but we're just starting to write it in Montreal.

colleyc 27:08

So oh, cool. And is the orientation a little bit similar to um assigned country singer at birth? Or is it again, like, are you liking that kind of train that you're on right now?

SPEAKER_01 27:20

Yeah, I like it. I was pushing more for experimental type elements on that record, and I think there are, but they're more buried in the actual like parts of the players. So I'm kind of I have access to so many cool people on that record that played Saw. I also know like really good they're you know, I was thinking about the um, you know, uh Montreal is a very vibrant scene of experimental and also lots of improvisational musicians. So I think I'm trying to thinking about country in an experimental lens with an experimental lens. It'll just end up probably being pop songs because, you know, but see how far, see how far we can push it. But actually, maybe like co-writing at the beginning level of like picking time signatures and chords up with those musicians, you know, and then writing around that and seeing how much we can hide of that complexity and still make it sound like pop music, you know. So I don't know, it's fun. Like I love it. So my experience making it is my only experience of it. So yeah, I'm excited. Yeah, thank you so much for having me.

colleyc 28:16

Oh, it's been a great pleasure. Uh, I've led talking about your your journey. It's it's fascinating, and I know there's many more aspects, uh, but again, we'll look to the future for another conversation. Um, so people go out there and check them out. They'll be touring in the East Coast. Ray Spoon, latest album came out is Sign Country Singer of Birth. Absolute amazing record. Good luck on the tour, good luck on the writing and the noveling. I guess that's a one the noveling.

SPEAKER_01 28:48

Thanks. Have a nice day.

colleyc 28:50

Thanks.

unknown 28:51

Cool.

SPEAKER_01 28:51

Thanks very much.