ifitbeyourwill Podcast
“ifitbeyourwill" Podcasts is on a mission to talk to amazing indie artists from around the world! Join us for cozy, conversational episodes where you'll hear from talented and charismatic singer-songwriters, bands from all walks of life talk about their musical journey. Let's celebrate being music lovers!
Season Four runs from September 2024 to December 2024
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ifitbeyourwill Podcast
ifitbeyourwill S04E13 • Ben Lee: A Journey Through Music and Creativity
Musician Ben Lee joins us for a fascinating journey through his life and career, offering insights into his musical beginnings and creative evolution. From the formation of Noise Addict as a teenager to the crafting of his solo debut album "Grandpaw Would". Listeners will gain a deeper appreciation for Ben's knack for creating catchy pop gems and his unwavering commitment to genuine artistic expression.
The podcast delves into the crucial support of Ben's father, who played an instrumental role in his early music career. His father's unwavering dedication opened unexpected doors, including opportunities with Sonic Youth and Grand Royal, the label established by the Beastie Boys. Ben reflects candidly on the challenges he faced, balancing ambition with reality, and important career milestones, such as his experiences recording "Breathing Tornadoes."
Finally, we explore Ben's perspective on the ever-evolving music industry and the impact of emerging platforms on modern creativity. Embracing change while staying true to his indie rock roots, Ben discusses the creative freedom streaming platforms provide and the influence of 90s music on his new projects. From upcoming singles to exciting ventures like a children's TV show pitch, Ben's positive energy and passion for exploring creativity across diverse mediums shine through, offering inspiration for both artists and fans alike.
all right, here we are, another episode of bureau Bureau Podcast. I mean again, great pleasure Running into these artists. I mean I reached out to Ben Lee. I threw an email over to him and like wow, he said yes, so here I have Ben Lee coming in from Sydney. Is that correct, ben?
Speaker 2:That is true. I am here From.
Speaker 1:Sydney. Is that correct, ben? That is true, I am here Very cool. Well, ben, I don't want to do what I normally do with you, because I like to go and talk about your beginnings and all that. I want to ask you what was it like? You started Noise Addict at quite a young age, in your early teens. What was the first song that came out of at at quite a young age, in your early teens? What was the first song that that came out of that band?
Speaker 2:Well, the band was sort of just this construct. Uh, I was being very resourceful and, uh, utilizing you know, uh, that friend of mine, his older brother, has a drum kit, so this guy should has access to drums, he's the drummer. Um, so it wasn't really like a band that music came out of. It was like I'd write songs and I'd bring it. I'd be like, okay, play this, play that you know, um, but uh, I mean the first song though, that you guys played together like once you assembled yeah, I mean, it would have been something from that first def ep that thurston moore put out, or like dead kennedy's, let's lynch the landlord.
Speaker 2:Or um, holidays in the sun, sex pistols. We did that. Um. But yeah, there was like a handful of songs I'd written like listen to your girlfriend and summer trip and filthy, and those, those first ones I I sort of. It's funny when I remember years later when rivers cuomo was at harvard and I heard he'd done that excel spreadsheet breaking down every nirvana and Beatles song. I really related to it because that's sort of how I started writing songs where I analyzed, I was like, okay, so it goes, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, solo, sometimes a bridge, double chorus, end. And it was like understanding the basic formula for a pop song was kind of how I did it. I went, okay, I need chords for a verse, chords for a chorus, and so you can have more minor in the verses and more major in the choruses. Like I just sort of learned the basic science of it and that's what all those early songs were and in a way it hasn't changed. Yeah, right.
Speaker 1:And that formula that you cracked into. Did that serve like? Did it ever change at all? Like I know that in later albums you started to kind of maybe get a little bit more experimental or like dabbling in different genres, but did you pretty well maintain that structure throughout most of your songwriting that you've done so far?
Speaker 2:I would say that anytime I veer away from a traditional pop song or folk song format, I'm doing it kind of consciously. You know, it's like in hearts of darkness when Coppola says to Dennis Hopper you got to learn your lines before you can get them. So it was a bit like that. Like that, even when I'm not doing that format, I'm aware that I've strayed from that format. So it's a conscious choice, you know, um, but I've, you know little, I like jammy bits and noisy bits and you know, I've also always like, I have that indie rock thing of. I love a good 30 second song, that is. It's almost like from hardcore or something. Um, so, but you know, in general, the the framework of a pop song seems to work for me, right.
Speaker 1:And that first record that you did solo-wise. Grandpa, I got addicted to that record big time and it's kind of like you just said, these little short pop gems. How did all those songs kind of assemble that first record of yours that you put out? I mean it came to Chicago to record. Did you have all of that in your baggage when you came over to the US?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I came and I recorded 12, I think or 14, because I thought that was like what a number you're meant to have on. But no one actually timed the songs and realized that they were all like two minutes each. So at that point, because it was pretty streaming, what constituted an lp, like a full length? It had to be over 30 minutes and I think I came in at like 28 minutes or something like. So grand royal were pretty annoyed that they brought me over there and everything. So then they sent casey rice to um to sydney to record a few more. But but yeah, I was writing. I used to write a song pretty much every day, like after school, just come home, write a song.
Speaker 1:I just picked the best ones right and like what's your, what was your writing process back then, when you're just you know you had your formula. You're figuring it out like how, what was your process? Like you'd come home from school and and what would come first? Like would a lyric hit you or would it be a couple of chords put together? Like how did you start creating songs for those that first record?
Speaker 2:I mean, I think when it's best it's neither strictly one or the other, because even words have rhythm to them. So even if you come up with a phrase, there's a built-in musicality to that phrase, to the way the words sound that suggest music, you know, but a lot of you know a lot of imitation. I've always been sort of like a kind of a big believer in imitation, because you can't sound like anyone else, especially when you're starting, because you don't have the technical skills to imitate well, so you end up doing these sort of very weird versions of. So I think I was just thinking a lot about Tom Morgan from Smudge, this songwriter I loved, and Jonathan Richman and Pavement and Sebado, and just sort of like writing my versions of those songs and trying to, you know, get girls I had crushes on to notice me or whatever and like what was your first, like chords that you learned, that that ended up coming through in your songs.
Speaker 1:You know I mean pretty much.
Speaker 2:From when I learned my first three chords like e, a and d and D I wrote songs. I mean you only need like me and my daughter she's going to get up and do a song with me on the weekend at my show and she wanted to cover a big thief song and it's a G and C chords. You know the whole song just goes back and forward and she's like blown away, like you can see that moment when you realize that it's not as complicated as you feared. That's like the experience I had seeing Nirvana play when I was like this is like three guys just that are friends and obviously the songwriting is incredible and they were great musicians but the actual architecture of it was not complicated and it's a very it's a very liberating kind of thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I read also, ben, that you and tell me if I'm wrong here, but you were on the Voice in Australia. Were you a judge?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was like a mentor, they called it. So it was like you had the judge, like in my case it was Joel Madden from Good Charlotte, and then I was his like guest. You know, it was just like another way to sort of shoehorn some celebs into it, or something right and and like what is what is it?
Speaker 1:you know, like when you see an artist and listen to them perform, like what hits you first about?
Speaker 2:wow, like there's something there, um well, it's interesting because I don't know that I'm a particularly good a&R person in that sense of going like do they have it or not? Because, like I remember a tour with like there was like Lemonheads headlining me in the middle, matchbox 20 on first, and I just didn't. I thought Matchbox 20, they had. I liked that song, push. I thought that was pretty good, but I thought this is like a major label thing that's not going to work essentially. So I'm just sort of not that good at going. This is going to a hundred percent have commercial appeal. I think I know my taste very well. So, yeah, like it's interesting now that Ione and I have our company Weirder together and we sort of use it as a platform to share work that we like, because it's giving me more of a chance to just sort of realize that just because things are good doesn't mean they're like for me. So like, sometimes, like I'll come across things I'll be like that's really good but it's not. It doesn't fit with what, the vision I have of what I want to share. So what kind of lights me up in terms of an artist is I really like?
Speaker 2:I kind of just really like a mixture of courage and vulnerability. I like anything that. I like things that have a DIY, some level of DIY-ness to them. Like I don't want to feel the hands of 40 year old men on a record by a 20 year old. You know what I mean. I just don't want to feel that. I want to feel that I'm like inside the artistic experience of a young person. So I I would rather it feel clumsy and sloppy and messy, but authentic in that way. So that's sort of just, it's just what I, but it's quite. It's hard to say. It's like sometimes it's something and you're just like oh my God, this is like my vibe. This is what I want to in my car while I'm driving around.
Speaker 1:Right, right. And when you first started performing, did you have that courage as you talked about just now, like when you went up on stage and started delivering your music to people? Or did it have to come, like, did it take a while to gather that courage, to keep pushing it forward?
Speaker 2:It's a bit hard to say, because when you start out you have a lot of bravado and courage. Real courage usually comes through experience. You know, you get to know yourself. So I think I put on a pretty good show of like, but then in a way you think about it like in a war does a soldier actually have to be brave or do they have to act brave? You know, you can still be pretty effective just by faking it. But then later, as the pressures build and different opportunities come up, if you don't have genuine courage or self-belief, it becomes a little harder to meet the challenges. You know, I would say overall I had guts you know what?
Speaker 2:I mean yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I heard too. I don't know if it was an interview or a podcast, but your drive like it was there from the start, Like you knew what you wanted to do.
Speaker 1:I think you referenced like the door opened slightly and you were like you jammed your foot in it. You're like, yeah, it's not closing, like yeah, this is what I need to do. And my, my question is, I guess, ben, is where did that come to you, um, at such a young age to to want to put yourself out there to the world and write songs and travel, how did you come to that as an individual?
Speaker 2:I don't know if I have an answer to that. That is, I always loved music. I always loved performing, I liked singing, I liked storytelling, I liked entertaining. And then it's like my needs and cultures, like the moment that culture was in with like indie rock, like post-Nirvana indie rock and lo-fi music and home recorded music got like this giant boost because suddenly people were interested in more left of center artists and you didn't have to be perfect, you didn't have to be really slick, so it's just like who I was and what the world was where it was. It was like the right moment. It could easily had, had this been a hundred years earlier, um, having attitude would not have been enough to start a music career. So I I feel very lucky in that sense.
Speaker 2:You know it's timing and your dad helped you with that first gig with noise addict is that like my dad was like really helpful in general, like he took us to when we opened for fugazi. He drove the van down. Um, he, uh, he, yeah, he was loving and he liked my passion and my enthusiasm.
Speaker 1:Um, so, yeah, he was how did you communicate that passion to your dad, like, how did he see that passion in you, that music? Was it like I? I gotta help ben, you know, get out well, mainly just because form or whatever.
Speaker 2:No, it was mainly just because I was doing it, like he saw me like I was going to the post office and mailing demos and trying to book gigs and you know it was also like the era of the landline. So he heard every. I was following up and doing it and he was like I think I can get you a gig at this waverly library books, secondhand book sale and sausage sizzle. I was like amazing. I mean, that was like a very sweet gesture yeah, and how did like?
Speaker 1:did you expect that there would be somebody there that was kind of like scoping things out and like was that a complete surprise? Like because then after that you would, you'd hooked on with sonic youth to go in and open yeah, well, that was all through the same guy.
Speaker 2:This guy, steve pad um, who had been given my tape because I'd sent it into waterfront records and he was about to start a co-venture, okay with um, with uh, with another guy, ste Stephen, at Waterfront. So he brought bands out and everything. So I think I'd send it to them and obviously what you do is you tell them where you'll be playing next. And we had a gig and they sent him. So no, it was a surprise because literally it was all seventh graders, it was just our friends sitting in a row, and then this one dude in his 20s, his hips, the dude right, yeah, um, artists have been telling me that because I ask, like, when did you know that something was happening, you know, in your career?
Speaker 1:and they always say, well, I didn't have to invite people to show anymore, they would just come, you know. But before that, it was all you know, I had to, like, get my friends and convince them to come down with the show and fill up a bit of space. Um, and that that was oftentimes one of their first kind of wow, I didn't invite any of these people in there, you're listening. You know like ready to listen what was another?
Speaker 1:a tipping point, ben that, so that one obviously propelled you know what were some other moments in your career that that that changed the trajectory of perhaps where you were going, I mean it's hard for me to identify because it was just one to another, to another, to another, but like I mean, I can think of lots of kind of creative ones.
Speaker 2:Like like hearing Jonathan Richman and realizing that sorry, realizing that you could play acoustic guitar and it could sort of be punk, that was like a really big for me. Um, uh, yeah, things like when the beastie boys, when they had grand royal starting and they wanted to put out my music, um, when liz fair's record came out, exiling guy bill, that's what led me to doing grandpa wood with brad wood, so, and then just tons of these kind of things like. Another one was sort of like when I was about 19, I'd finished high school and I thought I was going to make breathing tornadoes in, basically, my school holidays and then go to uni and it just didn't come together because I was trying to do something a bit more ambitious and it was just getting delayed. You know how things do and I remember I called my mom.
Speaker 2:I was feeling like really bad because they'd been so supportive and I was going to go to university and I just said, oh, I don't know if I'm going to get the record done in time the label wants me to do it, you know, in April, not in December or whatever. And my mom said university will always be there. Just follow the opportunities. And it was like one of the most generous things that my parents ever did for me was just give me permission like help, take, absolve me of any guilt in following my dreams. So those were. Yeah, that was a big one.
Speaker 1:So, ben, a new record. Just you know, you just dropped a new record and you kind of went back to the old old school a little bit in the sense of recording and keeping it very like, kind of you know, back to its roots or your roots as an artist. How did those songs come together? And were those songs that just all happened in one shot, or had those been kind of a? You grabbed them from various times throughout your career and then yeah like how did that record come to be?
Speaker 2:Well, I wrote them over the course of a year or 18 months or something. But what I generally find is I start writing and like themes and cohesive ties start becoming apparent and I think I was just. It's so funny like the further we get from the 90s, like you start seeing new generations of kids who have infatuations with it. You know, like all those kids doing that fit check thing on TikTok to the Pavement song, it's just like it's amazing. Like it's amazing watching Pave pavement become the establishment in a way. You know, but I think it's given.
Speaker 2:I spent a lot of my time my twenties like running from indie rock in a lot of ways, because I felt like it was really. It was just sort of like siloed, like you could and couldn't do, and I think because the generation before me, like the pavements and separdos and sonic youth, like they came through hardcore, so their like sense of like what was right and wrong about art, it was very strict, you know, whereas I in a way have more in common with like the next, with like the streaming generation, who just saw it all as kind of fodder for my own curiosity and creativity. Um, so I was curious about things that now like there's no selling out anymore anyway, and there is no like niches and subcultures, like they all just merge and everything but like when I had mandy moore sing on ripe, that was just sort of like people were looking at me like what isn't this an indie rock, right, like. So I spent a lot of time like running from um, having like too strict a definition of what was okay and what wasn't.
Speaker 2:Um, and now that more time has passed, the good that I got through coming up through indie rock in the early 90s, Like it's just so crystal clear to me and the parts of that that I want to carry with me every day. And that's not all of it, you know, and that's why, like on the record in Less Control, I say you know, I still love the old heads because they've still got soul, but when they get stuck in the past it leaves me cold Because, like, I really do appreciate what bonds me to that generation but I also want to keep pushing forward. So just sort of all I was. Just this is what I was interested in and that's what I was writing about and how?
Speaker 1:how is the juggernaut of the music industry, like with this release that you've put out, like, I mean, you've flowed through so many decades of you know, you know, creating an album, releasing it, touring singles has it changed over time? Do you think, like, kind of with the with your eye on the record that you've just put out?
Speaker 2:yeah, I mean the industry has changed immensely.
Speaker 2:I mean I think I guess cause I'm sort of like a good student, like ultimately, like in my personality makeup that when Noise Addict made our first demos, I found like an industry advice instructions in the back of like our village voice type thing in Sydney and it told you what to do with your demo and how to get it to labels and what you should put in the pack. And I just followed the instructions and I've always felt like that's no different to like learning how to do TikTok or learning how the streaming algorithm works, Like I've always been open to going okay, what are the rules of the game? And if I want to get my work across, I've got to learn how they work and I've got to do them to some extent. So that core principle hasn't really changed to some extent. So that core principle hasn't really changed. I'm still looking at the landscape going how can I engage with this in a way that allows me to reach out but also preserves the inherent nature of whatever it is that I've made or who I am?
Speaker 1:So cool and kind of like you've had a bit of distance from, from the record that you've just put out. How do you, how do you feel about it, how do you, how do you look at it?
Speaker 2:And you know, now that you have this artifact that you created, I feel good Cause I'm also like now that I'm doing I've been doing so many shows and I've got this great band together and I'm doing lots of solo shows too but also band shows and I'm just realizing like the architecture of like a live indie rock band like guitar, bass, drums, keyboard hopefully two guitars at some point, if we can get the budgets up a little bit, you know but basically like all this other stuff that like tracks and visuals, like they're all great and they're fine and everyone uses them. But I want to do this. I just want to have like a great touring indie rock band with great harmonies and great guitar sounds. And you know the simplicity of that. And I think a lot of what I was exploring by having that amazing rhythm section on that album was getting back to songs that can stand up with just that more just basic, you know, aesthetic or that sort of structure. I'm probably now I'm in a vibe for some doing some home recording.
Speaker 2:One of the things I'm interested in is that when radio was the dominant means of sharing music, it was actually very gentrifying to production and to song structure because it all had to sort of sound the same Like. I always remember that idea don't touch your dial. The goal of radio programming is just to give you this ongoing experience that you leave on in the background Right, whereas with streaming, I think, like the algorithm works best if it encourages people to hit, like, on a song that comes up in the algorithm. So where radio said don't touch that dial, I think streaming wants you to touch that dial, you know, and they want you to explore and go Ooh, I like that, ooh, I like that. So, in a way, things that jump out um have a better chance than they did 20 years ago, where it felt like things that fitted in. So I'm actually feeling quite brave with, like production choices and subject matter and stuff, because I think the things that separate you now are actually more of a competitive advantage.
Speaker 1:Interesting, interesting, well, I mean, it's such a great album.
Speaker 3:Thank you, I've been enjoying it.
Speaker 1:It has that heart and like that hunch to it and there's still some subtle song like delicate songs, but like um. I really loved watching kind of you do um, I think it was pop queen with, with your guys that you recorded with just to kind of relive, um, and it really like it, like wow, like it brought back all that, that flood of feeling from Grandpa Wood.
Speaker 2:It's so weird that, like I'm like married to these songs. Now I realize like whenever I write a song, whenever I write an album, release an album, probably two songs or three songs from it are going to become part of this body of work that I will continue to play. You know, you never can tell exactly which ones. They are, the ones that have staying power, but I do realize that it's this mix between having a light touch but also realizing you're building this body of work and they're going to stick around, they're going to chase you.
Speaker 1:Which is amazing, right? Because it's like you have this archive now of and I mean you know it's on a record on a tape, on a cd, whatever. I mean it just lives well, it lives in my heart. I'll tell you that um thank you really cool. So, ben, just to kind of as we kind of wrap things up here what, what, what is this? The rest of this year look like in and into beyond with your music. Um, are you?
Speaker 1:well, there's lots of um recording I imagine, and uh ideas popping out and songs yeah, every day and stuff I've got.
Speaker 2:You know, I've got lots of single. Like I have a single actually coming out at the end of this week, just a song I recorded with my friend, this solo artist, um johanna samuels, in la. We wrote a song called Sunset Marquee, so we're putting that out this weekend. I've developed this kids animated musical TV show that I'm going to Taiwan, to the Asian Animation Summit to pitch in November. We're still building our podcasts, we're developing a lot. We're gearing up for next year, my wife's memoir coming out, so lots of things around that. And, yeah, I'm going to start making a record at some point. I'm just sort of letting the creativity bubble up, like it usually hits a point where, like I can't not pick up my guitar and write a song and I'm just like I can feel that on its way.
Speaker 1:Amazing, amazing. Well, I really want to thank you again, ben, for carving a little window of your time. I mean, I love the creativity that you're talking about and that you're dabbling in multiple areas. Like creativity has no silos, totally, it must be free, and you're a beautiful model of that creative freedom.
Speaker 1:Thanks mate Cheers free and you're a beautiful model of that creative. Thanks, mate. So I really appreciate your time and good luck with with what's to come and we'll definitely be following and I hope, as the next record comes out, you might want to come back on and we'll continue this conversation.
Speaker 2:Let's do it.
Speaker 3:Thanks so much and tell my friends. So yeah, I've been kind of down, but when I get into town Maybe you could come round. Let's make it good again, don't you want to make it good again? Baby, I'm half asleep, half awake. I've got a heart that can break A vibe I want to create. Awake, I've got a heart that can break. I've had but want to create, but I've been feeling so strange, can't stop reading the signs. But if I run out of time with all this love in my mind, maybe I'm ready to change. Oh yeah, I'm ready to change.
Speaker 3:Baby, I really really want to be Positive energy, but living in reality Is getting kind of heavy. I can see it right there in front of me. Give me a hint of your positive energy, your positive energy, thank you. I guess they're in the way out of all the sadness around. Just keep my feet on the ground and do it all with a smile. Yeah, we can do it all with a smile.
Speaker 3:Baby, tell me, don't you wanna be Positive energy Living in reality? You know it ain't easy, can't you see it's love and other enemies Take a hit on my positive energy. I really, really want to be Positive energy. Living in reality it's getting kind of heavy. I can see it right there in front of me. Give me a hint of your positive energy, your positive energy, cause I'ma never know why.
Speaker 3:I guess I know I could cry. Cause I'm a never know why. I guess I know I could cry. I guess I'm a never know why. I guess I know I could cry. I guess I'm a never know why. I guess I know I could cry. I get so quiet and I don't even tell my friends I really, really wanna to be positive energy. Living in reality is getting kind of heavy. I can see it right there in front of me. Give me a hit of your positive energy. Come on, give it all to me, positive energy, because living in reality Is getting out of hand. Can't you see? It's changing up our chemistry, getting closer to something that we want to be. I can see it right there in front of me. Give me a hint of your positive energy, your positive energy.
